Can Atma be Destroyed ?

This article documents how Advaita Vedanta and Visishtadvaita  handles Bhagavad Gita Ch2: Verse 17.

Adviata Vedanta analysis is from ‘Bhagavad Gita Homes Study’ by HH Swami Dayananda Saraswati. It is in Arial font and in PLUM color.

Visishtadvaita analysis in GREEN color is from ‘Srimad Bhagawat Gita’ by Sri U.Ve. Velukudi Krishnan -  http://saranathantg.blogspot.com/2007_04_01_archive.html

Advaita Vedanta – Commentary by Swami Dayananda

2-17
अविनाशि तु तद्विद्धि येन सर्वमिदं ततम्‌। विनाशमव्ययस्यास्य न कश्चित्कर्तुमर्हति॥
avināśi tu tadviddhi yena sarvamidaṁ tatam | vināśamavyayasyāsya na kaścitkartumarhati ||
idam sarvam - this entire world; yena - by which; tatam - is pervaded; tat - that; tu - indeed; avinasi - indestructible; viddhi - know; asya avyayasya - of the one that does not change; vinasam - destruction; na kascit - no one; kartum - to do; arhati - is able
Know that, by which this entire world is pervaded, to be indeed indestructible. No one can bring about the destruction of the one that does not change.

Here, tat refers to sat, that for which there is no abhava and that which is understood by the knower of the truth (tattva-darsi), as stated in the previous verse (BG 2:16). That sat is not subject to destruction - it is avinasi. Moreover, everything that is here, the entire world, is pervaded by this indestructible sat, sat-atma. Being subject to destruction, the world is asat, not sat.

In this verse, sat and mithya are made very clear. Sat is other than asat, whereas asat is not other than sat. Sat-vastu is called visnu, a word which is being quietly introduced here by bhasyakara, Sankara. That which pervades everything, meaning the entire world including space is called visnu. This is sat. Since there is no asat without sat, the bhava of the asat is nothing but the bhava of the sat. For example, because the existence of a clay pot is inherent in the existence of the clay, the bhava belongs to the clay and not to the pot and when we say, `The pot is,’ that `is’ is sat. Therefore, wherever there is asat, there is sat.

How do we get to the sat? We do not have to get rid of the asat in order to get to the sat. Nor is the asat sitting upon the sat, covering it up, just as the pot does not cover the clay by sitting on it. You need not destroy the pot in order to know the clay. It is a question of understanding alone.

Another question then arises. When the entire world is pervaded by the sat-vastu, is the sat-vastu destroyed when the world is destroyed? No. One is sat which is not subject to destruction and the other is asat. When the asat is destroyed, the sat is not destroyed. There is both difference and non-difference here - non-difference in the sense that all there is, is bhava, sat, and difference in the sense that, while the asat depends upon the sat, the sat does not depend upon the asat.

Therefore, we say that there is both non-difference and difference. Because there is no real difference, there is non-duality. The crux of the matter here is that `B’ is `A.’ whereas `A’ is not ‘B.’

THE INDESTRUCTIBILITY OF THE NON-DUAL

Is it possible that sat, like time, destroys itself by its own nature, creating itself and then going away? No, because it is avyaya, not subject to change. Can anything else, other than itself, destroy sat? No. Since sat pervades everything there is no other. Since sat-vastu is ekam advitiyam - one without the second, there is no second thing that can destroy sat.

Any ‘other’ is dependent upon this sat-vastu and, therefore, has no independent bhava at all. How is it going to destroy the sat? This would be like the pot destroying the clay. The pot cannot say to the clay: ‘I am bored with you. You are always hanging around me. You never give me any privacy. Wherever I go, you come too. I am going to get rid of you.’ The pot cannot get angry at the clay. It cannot get out of the clay and destroy it. Such a possibility does not exist.

Therefore, Krsna said here that the vastu, this sat-atma, which does not change at any time, cannot be destroyed by anyone or anything. There is no one to effect destruction and no one capable of destroying it - asya avyayasya vinasam na kascit kartum arhati.

Regardless of the number of people or objects, atma is always non-dual. No number or condition, activity or connection to activity brings about a change in the atma. In fact, there is no connection, sambandha for the atma, just as there is no connection between the clay and the pot because all that is there is clay. If there were a pot other than clay, then the clay could establish a relationship with it. But, when a pot is clay, there can be no relationship between them. This, therefore, is the nature of atma.

At the end of his commentary on this verse, . Sankara says that no one can destroy this atma, not even Isvara, the Lord. But shouldn’t God be able to destroy anything? Sankara is not trying to belittle God here.

Sankara was merely pointing out that Isvara cannot destroy the sat-cit-ananda-atma, not because he is not almighty, but because Isvara is atma.

Atma is Brahman and Isvara is Brahman; therefore, atma and Isvara are the same Brahman, The destroyer, Isvara is atma. What is to be destroyed is also atma. How, then, can there be destruction when there is no distinction between the agent and object of destruction?

A subject-object relationship, kartr-karma-sambandha, is not possible between Isvara and atma. But is there not a relationship between the devotee and Isvara? Yes, if the word `devotee’ means an individual - atma identified with a given body-mind­sense complex. Isvara can destroy or help a devotee, elevate or give punishment, but Isvara cannot destroy the sat-atma because both are identical; they have no subject­object relationship.

Perhaps it might be argued that one part of the subject can destroy the other part, just as we can take a knife in our hand and destroy ourselves. If one hand can amputate the other hand, why cannot one part of the subject, atma, destroy the other part? Cannot atma also commit suicide in this way? Such destruction could only happen if atma had parts - which it does not have. It is avyaya, indeclinable, indestructible.

Visishtadvaita – Commentary by Sri U.Ve. Velukudi Krishnan

The 17th sloka is:

avinasi tu tad viddhi

yena sarvam idam tatam

vinasam avyayasyasya

na kascit kartum arhati

"That which pervades the entire body you should know to be indestructible. No one is able to destroy that imperishable soul."

Atman is all pervading in the matter we are able to perceive. Here, atman is in singular form, but means every atman it occupies the respective body. Sri Krishna says that if one knows that the atman is indestructible, then one can conclude that there is nothing to destroy the atman. This means no living or nonliving entities can destroy atman. In other words another atman also cannot negate an atman. No materials also can ever annihilate an atman. This indestructibility is natural to atman and so it cannot be wiped out. Just as the fragrance, which is, natural character of a flower cannot be removed. The atman in a body is pervading or spread out in the entire body, just like a glow of a lamp illuminates the entire room it is in.

Atman is atomic in size and the body it is residing is much bigger.

Scientifically, many atoms form all materials we recogonise. But the atman is smaller than the atom and there is nothing smaller than the atman.

Here, Sri Krishna postulates a very important law. Only a smaller object can destroy a bigger object.

Let us explain this. When an arrow is fired at a body, the tip of the arrow is minute and so it is able to hurt the bigger body. Similarly, the bullets fired from a rifle destroy the target, as the bullet is smaller than the target. That is, only sookshmam [minute] will destroy sthoolam [enormity] and as a corollary sthoolam can never destroy sookshmam. Since atman is the tiniest and there is nothing else smaller than atman, it cannot be destroyed.

Let us examine the veracity of this Law. A stout rod destroys a small earthen pot. Apparently,it is contrary to the law mentioned now in that the bigger rod destroyed the smaller pot. But actually, the enormity has not destroyed the pot. If that was true then a big bundle of cotton if thrown on the pot should have broken the pot. Similarly, if the rod were just kept on the pot, the pot remains without breaking. So a massive rod alone is not responsible for breaking the pot. Even a throw cannot break the pot as we saw throwing cotton bundle could not break it. So it is seen that a rod and a force are needed to break the pot. This is also not enough. If the pot were at one place and if we swipe the rod with force at another place, the pot will not break. Because a contact between the rod and pot is essential to break the pot. So, we can now conclude that to break a pot, a mass, a force and a contact are needed.

Science tells that mass and velocity [or acceleration] produce force or power and this in a minute form acts at the contact point to destroy. We can remember the famous equation E [energy]= m [mass] Xc*2 [velocity]. Thus the law is observed to be true. An invisible minute power destroyed the pot. That is why Sri Krishna says that atman without a smaller entity being available, can never be destroyed.

In the 17th sloka to prove that the atman is eternal, He gave one reason; atman is tiny and no other is tinier than the atman to destroy atman. Here, Acharya Sri Vedanta Desika poses a question in his Thathparya Chandrika, a treatise on the Gita. It is true that atman is indestructible as no other entity is smaller than that, except one. That one is Paramatma described as Antharayami. The Upanishads describe Him as ‘anor aniyan mahato maheeyan’ [atomic in atom and larger than the largest]. So can He destroy an atman? This is the question Desika poses. This is an interesting question.

Earlier we gave an example of the mobile phone. As such an Rs.30,000 worth set will not work unless a tiny SIM card was placed in it. But this also is not enough, as we require the electro magnetic spectrum spread out for the mobile phone to have connectivity. This is provided by the towers [BT] erected in the area. Similarly if the atman [SIM card] in the body [Mobile handset] has to work, a towering personality –Paramatma [BT]- is needed.

We can see another example also. Injection is needed to cure an illness. The medicine was administered using an injection syringe fitted with a needle. The illness got cured. Now, was it the piercing of needle into the patient cured the body? Though, needle piercing was necessary, that alone could not cure the illness and we require the medicine to be sent through the needle.

So if we imagine the atman as a needle, the medicine is Paramatma. Thus God is present in each and every atman. Alwar says ‘udalmisai uyirena karandhengum parandulan’. So Sriman Narayana dwells within the soul. Then, He should be able to destroy the soul, is it not? The reply to this in the normal way, can put us in tight spot.

If one says that atman is indestructible, we find Paramtma is tinier than that. If we still maintain that atman cannot be destroyed, then the All Powerful quality of God is disproved, as He cannot destroy atman. On the other hand, if we say Paramtma can destroy atman by accepting His all Powerful quality, then it means atman is destructible and what was told earlier as the everlasting quality is not there for the atman.

Here, Desika gives an amazing answer to the question. It is most important to accept that God possesses the omnipotent quality and has the capacity to annihilate any atman. But out of sheer love for His darling atman, He has taken an oath as not to destroy any atman. So, it is His unwillingness to destroy an atman, makes the atman as eternal.

It is similar to a case where, a door is locked and the only key is with a single person, who alone can open that door. If that person is away some 1000 miles away, we normally say, this door cannot be opened. What we imply is in the normal way it cannot be opened, unless the person comes with the key.

So also, the atman can be destroyed only by a single Entity, but that Entity has vowed not to destroy and thus the atman is everlasting.

One may wonder how far this assurance can be relied as Sri Krishna is famous for His tricks and cheats. Those are the playful deeds of the Lord as a cowherd and in a serious sermon He speaks only the truth and so His pledge not to destroy the atman is dependable.